Breaddues thea
I feel like I’ve said this a lot on this blog lately but I think it’s still not being made clear
If you are like me and criticizing the Democrats and Liberal 2.0ers from the left you are a LEFTIST like me, and NOT an enlightened centrist, grifter, contrarian, fake leftist, post leftist, radlib etc
Enlightened centrists and similar radlibs in particular wrongly think that both sides are too extreme
Us Leftists rightfully point out that Democrats are a far right party that is complicit in genocide and slavery. And that’s not an exaggeration, that is literally the effect of their policies domestically and internationally
There are lots of liberal 2.0ers and non liberal 2.0ers to a much lesser extent who get this confused. They think that when us leftists say “both sides are the same” they’re somehow situating themselves in the center.
What leftists like me are saying is that both parties are paid by the exact same people and served by the capitalist class, and leveraging social issues over our heads is a way to control us. Remember who the enemy is.
If you are a leftist like me who can explain in full detail all the shitty aspects of the Democratic party and their Liberal 2.0ers why you like me feel like voting for them is just another way of supporting capitalism... And you like me deal with this realization by organizing locally to support labor actions, direct democracy through ballot initiatives, and mutual aid for oppressed groups and the poor, then you are the farthest thing possible from an Enlightened Centrist, grifter, contrarian, fake leftist, post leftist, radlib etc
At least for me, I may be hard on the Democrats but I support labor actions, direct democracy through ballot initiatives and mutual aid for oppressed groups and the poor which I advice ever leftist to do especially leftists like me who are disaffected with the Democrats as much as the Republicans and wary of 'voting blue'
I agree with this post here from Stupidpol on this matter and this post here from Lindsey Ellis subreddit too along with this post on the Breaking points reddit and Intercept article with it. This post also reflects some of my views on this. I also agree with this article on it too
I also agree with this post below from breadtube reddit thread https://www.reddit.com/r/BreadTube/comments/11bltam/why_so_many_leftists_become_rightwing_grifters/:
post 1: I wish a smart leftist would just fake being a right wing grifter for like 3-5 years. Build a big fan base then just throw their whole hand of cards on the table and just blast them all with all the bullshit they’ve been doing. Document the whole process and wake some people up. (though rightists would just say said person 'went woke' or 'sold out to George Soros')
post 2 Who exactly do you think that would wake up? The fanbase of bigots and reactionaries you've cultivated? They would just strike you off the list of people they get information from and everyone would instantly cut content on you as "yet another" example of a dishonest leftist - "like they all are".
That already happens with notable leftist figures as it is. They're all called liars, grifters, hypocrites...and worse. Always have been.
All that aside, if you spend YEARS as a prominent figure spreading "right wing" propaganda, you're not a leftist. You're a piece of shit. You've indoctrinated millions of people - assuming you got that big. That doesn't magically disappear when you say "just kidding!".
I get there would be a bit of schadenfreude for some people enjoying watching all the gullible "right wingers" getting duped, but that wouldn't be some effective form of political action to promote leftist ideals and you would do FAR more harm than good.
Post 3 Lol relax it was just a thought.
Post 4: As a thought-exercise? For sure, it would definitely work. We could make a running list of "personalities" or politicians that don't live up to the values they promote, there's hypocrisy, lies, and projection abound in the political spheres. Especially on the "right". Extremely public scandals of hypocrisy. And yet you'll see conservatives completely ignore it as long as you "say the things" or uphold the status quo. They don't care. They're often extremely easy targets.
A leftist could certainly swoop in with a calculated grift. You're not wrong.
But yeah, I don't see any way for someone to consider themselves a leftist and be out there spreading actual right-wing propaganda for years. Call me a purity-testing ideologue - the idea of becoming a widely popular secret leftist "right-wing" propagandist can't exist, it's an oxymoron.
If someone is openly advocating for hate and fascist ideologies...they're a fascist. Assuming someone was engaging in the "grift" to that level.
Post 5: Steven Colbert comes close to this.
Post 6: Both Steven Colbert and Jon Stewart had some real damaging effects on younger people who were becoming politically aware to some level in the early 00's by my estimation. While I respect that they both certainly pulled many otherwise disengaged HS/college aged kids into the political fold with their mix of news/commentary + comedy/entertainment. It ends there. And turns to disdain.
Because they equally did this thing where conservatives and "right-wingers" were VERY often nothing more than fodder for their jokes. It obscures the true seriousness of it all. The real damage being done and how it should be met/resisted. Great, George Bush talks funny and says stupid shit at a podium...he's also a mass-murdering war criminal. "Haha". Look where we are 20 years later...
Then there's the lib-moments where they'll have a Hillary Clinton or Obama on and fawn over them for 20 minutes as the Afghanistan war (etc.) continues. Reinforcing this false dichotomy of "left/right - good/evil" political ideologies in America.
THEN there's the fun little "bits" they'd play with literal monsters like Bill O'Reilly - doing nothing more than humanizing them to this young audience. "More jokes" you see. Because this is all a joke I guess.
Stewart/Colbert played a huge role in raising a generation of elder millennial feckless "out to brunch" style liberals who think it's somehow activism to point their fingers at conservatives (or even fascists) and mock them. They didn't become politically active or seek to confront any of the issues they heard about on the Daily Show as kids - they ended up sticking globe emojis in their Twitter bios and smelling their own farts on social media.
Post 7: Chris Hitchens did this (in both directions) and was hated by both sides. You can argue he did far more harm than good, trying to tie a ribbon onto the fiasco of the Iraq invasion, but at least he (mostly) called out the right-wing horseshit of religion and crusades.
[edit, bit conflicted. Colbert had satire. Hitchens just had his somewhat more pompous brother]
Post 8: I've fantasized before about someone doing this. tbh it wouldn't be a bad idea for a leftist creator to make a name for themselves, not even specifically via the reveal, bc the talent pool's just so asymmetrical, anybody who can finish a sentence will rocket to the top of the RW sphere (even those who can't - see Tim Pool). u could build the audience on the right then "leave it" and have a name, whereas making one as a grassroots leftist would be, i'd have to think, significantly tougher.
Post 9: Multiple current well-known "leftist" creators have done this. And they have audiences. I won't name names...I'm sure you can come up with a few.
Their audiences aren't leftists just like they aren't. Even if they think they are. Shocker. Some of those audiences (and creators) have dropped the act since.
More than one I can name were on a spectrum of anti-SJW Gamergate creators who scrubbed their past - to literal fascists.
Post 10: If you can’t name names then that’s meaningless, and I said LEFTISTS, so your comment re “their audiences aren’t leftists just like they aren’t” doesn’t make the slightest bit of sense.
Post 11: My comment makes perfect sense to anyone who knows what I'm talking about. I'm not interested in dragging names and drama on Reddit. Or having to respond to their fanbases here that may want to yell at me. Because I'm sure some of them are in here.
I can absolutely name a name or two.
If you can't come up with even one I don't know what to tell you. They're out there. I'm not offering my opinion...it's an easily verifiable fact with a simple Google for a few of them.
Post 12) lmao those are truly some of the most blatantly false excuses I've ever seen. If I was gonna lie like that i'd have at least taken a few mins to construct sth faintly plausible.
Do better. This is the behavior of a RW conspiracy nut.
Post 13) 'and I said LEFTISTS'
And the original person you replied to said "right-wing". Not TOTAL FASCISTS. If you see this as some absolute extremist binary with zero nuance...I don't know what to tell you.
What is the "lie" you're talking about? Plenty of people misrepresent their political beliefs for their content or personal gains. In "both" directions. It's...politics.
Because I'm not going to drag names of content creators "on the left" who surely have audiences here...what? It doesn't exist? And I'm not going to split hairs with you over "LEFTIST" vs. progressive vs. the mainstream "left" media/creators.
You may see some oddly specific distinction between a "SUPER HARD LEFTIST" grifting only on the FARTHEST-RIGHT and doing a grand reveal vs. a "leftist" co-opting liberal/farther right talking points to hit a wider audience of mainly libs (and lashing out at other leftists when the contradictions show). I don't.
The only example doesn't have to be the farthest left An-Com you know doing Mussolini apologia...
Fine. And I don't want to hear anything about this. I was avoiding the "discourse". And I'm not interested in having it now that you're repeatedly trying to drag it out of me. I'm not naming any names, so I don't wanna hear it.
One of the most popular (self-proclaimed) "leftist" content creators is a person who was a self-described anarchist. Then a LibSoc or whatever. While being pro-NATO/pro-Taiwan among other nonsense. Being an annoying "edgelord" (bigotry as a joke you see). And using other liberal (or farther right talking points).
And their audience is full of reactionaries and people who fashion themselves "leftists". "Leftists" who run around calling everyone tankies. Many come from an equally not-at-all "leftist" community.
What do you call a "pro-NATO anarchist"? You let me know.
There are figures "on the left" who were involved in farther right (yes, including alt-right) activity during the Gamergate era. Some may have truly grown, sure...ALL of them certainly didn't. And some still use...reactionary talking-points and language while playing to a "left audience". Let's be charitable and call it that.
If you want to go down some rabbit-hole investigation of what some "leftists" were up to online a few years ago, go off. Have fun.
Post 14) Lol there's no organized left in most western nations.
Post 15) Yeah, the nature of the imperial core means, that, writ large, "the west" is hopelessly reactionary, the only embers of revolutionary potential being in whichever "non western" elements (that is to say, those who are deemed to be "undesirable presences" in the walled garden) are extant in western states.
Post 16) With the likes of Grayzone joining the TERFs, it makes me wonder why anyone thought a bunch of people supporting Assad and Putin are "leftists" to begin with.
Post 17) It feels good to be in opposition to something or someone. Doesn't matter who or what though.
Post 18) That puts a finger on the unease I feel in some "ultra leftist" and radlib spaces, you run into people who are entirely there for the tribalism and the opposition and do not give a single shit about what's real and what's not.
If anyone calls out their views as being coincidentally aligned and not based on anything factual and them as being weirdly authoritarian then it gets reduced to 'DAE Horseshoe theory?' or some other quip to deflect from the whole New Age to QAnon pipeline and similar trends.
Post 19) I've been saying for a while that these people are all either flip floppers or contrarians of ultra left/radlib thought with no actual political beliefs. Seems that's getting proven more every day. ~Cherri
So In other words they have no class conciousness and aren't pushing for class struggle.
Post 20) Because there's a section of the left which just hates America.
It's ironic to say that given that "America hater" is a prominent right-wing attack to anyone left of Joe Manchin but it's true from a logical perspective. Leftists have every right to be critical of aspects of our foreign policy, our barbaric health care system, inequality, etc, but they criticize these things because they're bad and want to change them.
But then some leftists just lose the plot and confuse the bad things about America with America being axiomatically bad, and therefore anything America opposes is good (or at the very least a necessary lesser evil).
You also run into red-brown shenanigans here, the kind of "leftists" who were sympathetic with the J6ers.
Post 21) I think the logic follows from this:
-America is the dominant empire
-America can't be changed from the inside through its own systems due to propaganda/laws/authorities
-Thus America must be destroyed/defeated by an external power or direct rebellion
If you accept these conditions, your call to action is to put every weapon you can in the hands of everything that would beat America. Any arguments of morality are dismissed in the same way that militaries have often called for overwhelming firepower/brutality to "end wars quickly" and to not "prolong suffering" because the idea is that however many suffer in the short term, many more will suffer in the long term as America does what it does wrt to imperialism in all its aspects.
What about everyone else? People come up with all sorts of arguments, but one of them is that they're not the strongest, so they're just not the prime threat. in the same sense, you'll find folks who now no longer believe fascism is the primary threat, because they think the core of the system (neoliberal/centrists) are the primary power base and will never be swung against the way people swung against Trump (to some extent) and that centrists will outlast and continue the empire far longer than overt fascists. In that sense, they have no problem accelerating things because see the paragraph before.
In the same way, if they're already prepped to say this about America, what is a country like Ukraine to them? Another country, a part of the plan, with less people and less connection to them. A stepping stone, a lesser part of something they already want to implement.
Post 22) Unfortunately this, many leftists would be a pro Russia victory in Ukraine (though few are pro Russia, I think) because it would mean America and NATO would take an L.
Journey before destination. Two capitalist states are squabbling over the sovereignty of a third. Both states are bad and their motives are selfish. At the end of the day if you believe a people have the right to self governance, you support Ukraine.
Post 23) It's like that bell curve meme. At the bottom end you have people who hate america for reactionary reasons, then you have the middle with people who just want the country to live up to its potential for good and then at the very end you have the people who hate america because they see it for the genocidal white supremacist fascism-exporting illegitimate slave state that it is.
Post 24) The axiomatic thing is true to almost every pole. Right wingers and many moderates are that way with pro America stuff. And the center likes to be axiomatic about the western society based on values stuff too, hence blind adherence to debating everyone and the idea of compromise or any bother core tenet or inclination that can become axiomatic.
Post 25) Seriously though the way "communists" and "socialists" that I follow on social media are excusing Russia because NATO is a problem is getting a little excessive. Being a good leftist isn't about being a contrarian and leaving it at that. Several of those voices are contrarians who cultivate a very particular audience faster than they are losing their old one. Filling the bucket faster than it leaks by repeating what ever is angering the current group of anti status quo.
Post 26) Most of the direct criticisms of particular people in this video are fair, but...
"You don't really need to look too closely, but notice you probably won't actually find any actual like left-wing people on there. They're all like weird libertarians, conservatives...."
No, you probably should look a little closer. Chris Hedges and Jill Stein absolutely are leftists. Whether you think it was wise for them to participate in this particular event (rage against the war) rather than looking for better opportunities to unite around opposition to war is a different matter.
Post 27) Spoiler alert, if you can be bought and co-opted by corporate interests… you were never left wing to begin with
Post 28) Jimmy Dore hurts the most. I liked him.
Post 29) Same here. He seemed true blue collar unlike many that were born into privilege. I mean he’s making bank so it pays his bills. I think he’s like most of them, just following the money.
Post 30) The CPGB to ERG pipeline is well known in UK politics, and it generally comes from a realisation that the masses, the proles, the workers, the chavs dont want total revolution, they just want things to be better.
Once you realise that you will not be Comrade Chairman, what else have you got to fall back on? Throw in a ton of dark-money, useful idiot billionaires and bargain basement foreign influence operations;
USA bad ->
Capitalism bad ->
Democracy actually leads to corporate socialism strangling the little guy ->
Socialism is bad & little guy should be left alone ->
Helping people is evil and the little guy is a bitch ->
*Fjork the Poor is what white Jesus actually meant
From SLS I echo this btw:
Post 1) Where do people get this idea that leftists and left leaning people like Max Blumenthal, Glenn Greenwald etc going on a fascists show like Tucker Carlson, that is watched only by chuds, is convincing anyone to become left wing? It would be nice if it was that easy, because I want working class conservatives converted too. But the reality is them going on shows like Tucker Carlson just legitimizes Tucker Carlson and his views to "leftists" that are fans of his guests.
Who said anything about MSNBC or CNN? How naive can you be to think that when "leftists" go on Tucker Carlson they're changing views? No one is taking away from that the idea that the US or the West or capitalism is bad, but rather that Democrats are specifically to blame. Dems, who by the way, chuds associate with communism.
I do agree with SLS in that Liberal 2.0 (maybe shitlib/radlib) would be a better label for people like Max Blumenthal, Glenn Greenwald, Ben Norton, and similar dissident leftists/ lean leftishists rather than smear words like grifter, right winger, right wing populist, far rightist, alt rightist, chud, reactionary, right leaning contrarian (for failing radlib/leftist/ultra leftist purity tests)
Also see here from EVS which does a better job at talking of this 'grifter' thing than some of the points above along with this post here
This is from the subreddit here: These types of Liberal 2.0ers are the ones who falsely label center to center left people like Glenn Greenwald (who is at worst a civil libertarian who leans center right), Krystal Ball, Russell Brand etc as 'grifters'. Yet these subredditers also do the same thing here the other way and as part of a thought exercise label right wingers as 'gtifters' who to them are secretly Liberal 2.0 or Left wing.
So imagine being a 'leftist' and believing that solid right wing reactionaries like Dennis Prager, Ben Shapiro, Nick Fuentes, Alex Jones, Stefan Molyneux, Lauren Southern, Steven Crowder, Paul Joseph Watson are secretly 'left wing' or 'liberal 2.0' and are spouting 'liberal/left wing talking points' . Yeah these people like those sub people are really smart judges of who is and isn't a leftist/liberal 2.0er.
from a 'leftist' subreddit points I generally am in at least some agreement with:
Dave Rubin and his husband/producer saw the opportunity to make him the token gay guy both in right wing comedy (complete and utter failure) and the alt-right/IDW once Milo dropped off. And even then people like Glenn Greenwald and Douglas Murray in the right wing heterodox sphere and Tim Dillon in comedy have overshadowed him by a long shot." So if Glenn Greenwald and Douglas Murray have an ideology that to this poster is 'heredox to the right wing' then maybe Greenwald and Murray aren't really right wing after all.
"Like all enlightened centrists, Tim Pool is a politically illiterate fool who doesn't understand what left or right actually mean and just sees that Rs and Ds have issues and thinks that makes him wiser than everyone else.
I'm with you, I don't get grifty vibes from Tim Pool, I get conservative who is too stupid to see where the Republicans want to go." So if he had that knowledge he wouldn't be conservative and thus would be centrist or liberal?
"Jimmy Dore is a grifter, the man is a political snake pretending to be a right winger pretending to be a left winger. He's 3 layers deep on his grifting."
"No, grifting is explicitly obtaining money through "swindeling or cheating" (urban dictionary) or a money making operation that is "dishonest or takes advantage of people" (ibid.). Being dishonest about your actual beliefs is intrinsic to grifting."
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